Tulpa.info - metaphysics

Yes, that.

5:33 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXmz605GAnc

melodysheep

Alan Watts - The Real You

then should the universe not hold any copyrights to it ?

Breloomancer

we are the part of the universe that's self aware

all you could say is that parts of the universe under certain circumstances can emerge into self awareness (edited)

its like saying only parts of a human is intelligent ofc it is but then agian what can just the brain do !

5:34 PM

employ force !!

The question for me is if we were living in the equivelent of a neuron, part of a universe that is self aware because of all of its parts acting together - if the universe, as a single entity, is self aware. Parts are self aware, but is the whole? (edited)

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Zen

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXmz605GAnc

watts

❤️

Reguile

The question for me is if we were living in the equivelent of a neuron, part of a universe that is self aware because of all of its parts acting together - if the universe, as a single entity, is self aware. Parts are self aware, but is the whole? (edited)

if multiple parts are aware then an emergent awareness would sonner or later crop up

5:36 PM

like internet going skynet!

Reguile

The question for me is if we were living in the equivelent of a neuron, part of a universe that is self aware because of all of its parts acting together - if the universe, as a single entity, is self aware. Parts are self aware, but is the whole? (edited)

is the whole human self aware? are the fingers self aware?

Arguably our society already is and if we go and expand to many planets whatever we expand to could be argued to be - but I'm thinking even larger scale still

immortalbeggar

like internet going skynet!

This makes me want to Marissa groan at you.

are you really using scifi fiction to prove your point lol

I want to say that only the brain is

Zen

This makes me want to Marissa groan at you.

i am quite positive that marisa will actually agree with me

5:37 PM

Reguile

I want to say that only the brain is

yes, but despite that, we still say that a human is self aware

If Marissa tells me that the internet could become a skynet I will reject all respect I had for them, no lie.

5:37 PM

And then promptly educate them.

I feel like that's a shorthand - cut the brain out and we stop calling the human self aware - we don't consider the finger to be self aware, we're just lazy in our terminology

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lol if sufficently cool ai does come into existence would it not be what i ment

I tried to use imposition to inquire of my unconscious to get where the feelings in our body actually are and it kept emphasizing marriage of electrons, seemingly pointing to potassium and sodium ions that fire electrical signals in the body or something

Breloomancer

is the whole human self aware? are the fingers self aware?

can you treat fingers separately if they are using the neurons from the same neural system of which the central neuron system is part of? (edited)

Because, I do believe something can be self aware through something else, but I believe that's only true if both those things are capable of thought - the finger isn't so couldn't be made self aware by you observing and relaying to it.

hydrix95

I tried to use imposition to inquire of my unconscious to get where the feelings in our body actually are and it kept emphasizing marriage of electrons, seemingly pointing to potassium and sodium ions that fire electrical signals in the body or something

my current theory is its not the electrons themselves but rather the timing and placement which infers meaning indirectly and that extends to the macroscopic as well, all things being fractal

For example, if you were to maybe build an understanding of some sort of character, then observe the way it behaves and let it react to itself, I don't know, some funny stuff might happen if you did that.

this is where fingers have potential to be self aware

5:40 PM

and the neurons in fingers are part of the neuron system the brain is part of

5:41 PM

so

On that point it is important not to alienate the nervous system from the brain itself. It's a direct continuation of the same kind of tissue.

yeah said it three times already

That's a fair point, but doesn't quite sit right to me

but in essence the whole body is a part of sytem like the mechanical and energy source parts for the circuit system

Well, some people don't pay attention! Namely me!

5:42 PM

grumbles ablist.

There's a fairly clear division between the big brainy thing in your head and the spindly connections going out to everywhere else - to call them the same or not draw a line feels wrong (edited)

Why?

Because they are very different in form and function

brain is experiencing the fingers though

There's also a clear structural difference between the actual gray matter and the lizard hind brain.

5:43 PM

But you don't alienate them.

They have a lower "degree of connectedness" if that makes sense. Chop a line down anywehre in your brain and it breaks a person pretty badly, cut the spine and they lose motion but the "person" stays largely intact

but neuro plasticity says allmost all nerves can learn to do what the other one did with time and practice

The lizard and higher brains share that degree of connectedness - they strongly interact with one another and depend on each other for function, take them out and the system really fundamentally changes

as new brain cells kinda dont get birthed that much

If you severe the connection entirely with the central nervous system the body dies entirely, unless I'm mistaken?

5:45 PM

You're not saying how they aren't connected.

5:45 PM

Other than what you feel

The body dies, but the "thinking system" is relatively unchanged minus the whole going to die soon part

5:45 PM

Or the inputs it's reacting to/ability to command the body

there can be anamolies , i mean heart has a pace maker if the other part can self regulate .....

5:46 PM

like hunger and stuff

without the nerves connecting the brain to the senses, the brain no longer gets stimulus and stops being aware of anything. it would not be possible to be self aware without the rest of the nervous system

You are self aware largely internally though hearing your own thoughts - mentally self aware - the physically self aware part is important but feels secondary to me

1

doesn't self awareness refer to awareness of itself rather than the surroundings?

Lots of feeling going on here based on nothing to be blunt.

1

Take the wheels off of a car and the engine is still an engine. Take the pistons out and.... no, the pistons are more important for an engine to be an engine than the wheels are

We also feel we are a self.

5:47 PM

We aren't.

if you are not aware of your surroundings how can you possibly by aware of yourself?

Breloomancer

without the nerves connecting the brain to the senses, the brain no longer gets stimulus and stops being aware of anything. it would not be possible to be self aware without the rest of the nervous system

if it still works it can substitute them with own fantasy worlds or directly start learning magnetic field sensing

i don't see why not bre

Because self awareness of my mind comes through "internal loops" whereh self awareness of the body comes through external loops and outside observation

brain is a hyperlinked network, it uses itself as an input all the time (edited)

regi makes sense

They are similar in concept, but the internal loops are way more "significant" to mental function - Cut my sense off and I'd still be me.... well, arguably cut my internal self awareness off and I might still be me too....

It most definitely can compute without input.

but without external stimulus, what would you be calculating in the first place? the self is only able to exist in contrast to an external, so without an external the self as a concept ceases to make sense

But that is irrelevant, honestly. The brain can survive with damaged lobes relating to a number of "core" functions.

Without external stimulus you'd be regulating your emotions and state of mind just like you do with external stimulus

5:50 PM

Just without a physical world to interact with - probably you'd very quickly startmaking an imaginary one to replace it

Breloomancer

but without external stimulus, what would you be calculating in the first place? the self is only able to exist in contrast to an external, so without an external the self as a concept ceases to make sense

thats subjective lets say this isolated brain in jar is awake it can simply make its own preception based on new cellular stimulus or it can just construct dream based on random varibles

ok, maybe we should define the terms. what do we mean by "self awareness"

or might even be able to truly be sensetive to the numenon nature of the universe and self

you might make an imaginary one if you already had a real one to begin with, but if you have never had an external world to begin with, why would you start making one?

Any given thing is self aware when it's able to process input and, somehow, part of it's input are the actions/behavior of itself

do we mean what wiki says? "In philosophy of self, self-awareness is the experience of one's own personality or individuality."?

5:52 PM

because depending on what we mean by self awareness, we will get different answers

Breloomancer

you might make an imaginary one if you already had a real one to begin with, but if you have never had an external world to begin with, why would you start making one?

its a brain , avoiding boredom is insticts crunching data is the dao (edited)

Reguile

Any given thing is self aware when it's able to process input and, somehow, part of it's input are the actions/behavior of itself

This is a description of a neural network, not self awareness.

5:53 PM

neural networks, as we are most definitely aware, can be woefully not self-aware.

Reguile

Any given thing is self aware when it's able to process input and, somehow, part of it's input are the actions/behavior of itself

and the nervous system outside of the brain is what is responsible for the input

They have to be self aware, if they were not they could not learn.

Zen

The resultant mess is a lot but that doesn't mean it's thinking.

But of course, youre not a part of that resultant mess, right?

To be able to learn you must understand what you did, and how to adjust it to better meet an outcome.

5:54 PM

That is a working self awareness

Reguile

They have to be self aware, if they were not they could not learn.

Adorable. And not true. It's possible to retain data without having any opinion on it.

5:54 PM

Or even being aware of it.

I think having and processing data on yourself is what it means to be aware of it.

And still having it effect output.

I don't see what else awareness would be?

Zen I have but one request

Reguile

I don't see what else awareness would be?

How much of the enormity of your history are you aware of as you make decisions based on that history?

sensing that we can sense is awareness at its core

If you're going to continue making this channel no fun, fucking change your name from Zen to Empiricism

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immortalbeggar

its a brain , avoiding boredom is insticts crunching data is the dao (edited)

it might create something, but I don't know why one would assume that what it creates would be at all analogous to an external world

Zen

How much of the enormity of your history are you aware of as you make decisions based on that history?

Wait, you're arguing non-doership now? Nvm I take back my previous sentence :3

I don't mean you need to be aware of your full history, you only need some level of "cycling information" - I don't need my whole history, only what I did a moment ago - more is better and makes you more self aware - a higher "degree" of self awareness.

Unfastened Belts

If you're going to continue making this channel no fun, fucking change your name from Zen to Empiricism

chill out bro